- From: fantasai <fantasai.lists@inkedblade.net>
- Date: Wed, 31 Jul 2013 23:46:56 -0700
- To: "www-style@w3.org" <www-style@w3.org>
Summary:
- Discussed proposal to allow justification in combination with
explicit letter-spacing
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2013May/0280.html
Seem to have consensus around Part I of proposal, except for Bert
- Plan to tie impact of 'image-resolution's 'snap' keyword to
layout-affecting zoom; transforms and scaling-zoom would not have
an effect. Tab to propose text describing the two different kinds
of zoom in either Media Queries or CSS Device Adaption.
- RESOLVED: two X/Y values for image-resolution, to allow explicit
values to match from-image in capabilities
- RESOLVED: Clarify spec that CSS units (not physical units) are
used for resolutions taken from image data
- RESOLVED: FPWD Matrix, with naming issues noted
- RESOLVED: box-fixup on internal table elements before flex item
determination, unless further problems raised during LC
- WG members should register participation in Paris F2F on wiki
====== Full minutes below ======
Present:
Glenn Adams
Tab Atkins (late)
Shezan Baig
David Baron
Bert Bos
Tantek �elik
Elika Etemad
Simon Fraser
Sylvain Galineau
Daniel Glazman
Rebecca Hauck
Koji Ishii
Dael Jackson
John Jansen
Brian Kardell
Philippe Le H�garet
Peter Linss
Chris Palmer
Florian Rivoal
Simon Sapin
Dirk Schulze
Alan Stearns
Leif Arne Storset
Lea Verou
Steve Zilles
<RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2013/07/31-css-irc
Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2013Jul/0685.html
Scribe: SimonSapin
CSS3 Text
---------
fantasai: on the ML, edits to justification section
<glazou> see also https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/w3c-css-wg/2013JulSep/0092.html
fantasai: waiting for SteveZ and jdagget to review and approve
fantasai: if no comment, next issue
SteveZ: jdaggett wants to continue discussion on the ML
[discussing what is the 2nd issue]
fantasai: proposal: letter-spacing allows justification with space
between characters when set to a length
fantasai: consistent with word-spacing, impls., some content depends
on this
SteveZ: agree to allow some level of justification if letter-spacing
is used
SteveZ: not happy with 'fixed' as a way to turn it of
SteveZ: letter spacing variation are very small (few %)
SteveZ: fixed doesn�t correspond to what people find useful: min,
mix variation
fantasai: one issue at a time
fantasai: 1 whether letter-spacing: length suppresses justification
fantasai: 2. do we have a way to turn this kind of justification off
SteveZ: is 2. a way to control it?
SteveZ: control is more important
fantasai: already resolved to not allow min/max spacing at this level
of the spec
SteveZ: if you can�t control it, you shouldn�t allow it
fantasai: then content breaks, impls need to change, and this is
inconsistent with word-spacing
SteveZ: lets put min/max back on the table
fantasai: not going to CR if you say we need this, and jdagget says
we can�t have this
<plinss> ack Bert
<Zakim> Bert, you wanted to suggest the question is the wrong way around:
we need a way to turn flexible letter spacing *on* (not off)
Bert: the way to turn automatic letter-spacing on could be to use the
'distribute' keyword
Bert: maybe not necessary to have control on the limits, but just say
there is a limit or no limit on expansion
Bert: maybe not further than twice the normal size is good enough
Bert: new keyword on text-justify, suggested on the ML. 'unlimited'
SteveZ: this is what fixed does
SteveZ: the spec does not specify a limit, but gotta be reasonable
SteveZ: kinds of limits I was coming across are +/- 5%, much smaller
than half
fantasai: letter-spacing also applies between CJK characters, in this
case you do not want to limit
SteveZ: CJK task force has a huge table of cases, it�s not uniform at
all. Unclear that this works for CJK
fantasai: auto justification algo is undefined, UAs encouraged to do
the right thing
fantasai: don't want to have strong limits on what UAs can do: 2.1 says
"can not add space between characters for justification"
stearns: 'fixed' keyword is not about not allowing variable expansion,
it forbids expansion at all
<stearns> thought that 'distribute' is what Bert is suggesting as
'unlimited'
<Bert> (To stearns: yes, and I suggest redfining 'distribute' as including
an implicit limit, and 'unlimited' is what 'distribute' does now.)
<stearns> Bert: I'd rather leave 'distribute' as is
fantasai: goal is to allow CJK to justify correct, so need to lift this limit
fantasai: also not break content and impls
fantasai: in order to get the previous spec behavior: add the 'fixed'
keyword, if that�s what you want
fantasai: impls will have to add it, but does not break content as its opt-in
fantasai: can add further controls in the future
plinss: anybody implemented previous spec behavior?
fantasai: not that I know of
Bert: I've been relying on it. letter-spacing: 0
fantasai: people who don�t read specs don�t do that, because currently
it has no effect.
fantasai: Implementations right now don't do justification with spacing
between latin letters.
Bert: content is there for what the spec says, not for future impls
florian: if nobody has implemented it, [???]
florian: I think fantasai�s way forward is more managable
plinss: continue discussion on email?
<stearns> +1 to fantasai's current wording
<florian> If nobody has implemented it, I suspect not many people have
written stylesheet that conform to the spec in a way that
breaks on current implementation, so while it is unfortunate
to contradict ourselves, it still sounds like a less painful
way
SteveZ: I think there is some agreement to allow letter-spacing to
participate in justification
SteveZ: we�re struggling with how to do that with existing impls/spec/content
SteveZ: even if we add min/max, you have to turn those one which doesn�t
work with existing content
SteveZ: unless we have defaults like +/- 5%
fantasai: that�s too small for CJK
stearns: leave impls. to choose limints
stearns: can have controls for the limits later
stearns: in favor of fantasai�s proposal now
SteveZ: I may be ok with that
+TabAtkins
SteveZ: what happens if you say fixed and specify a range
fantasai: you can't
fantasai: Basically, if we add min/max controls in the future,
'fixed' will be a shorthand to specify 3 identical values
fantasai: never able to combine it with a range
SteveZ: to do this correctly you need a table for CJK
SteveZ: table = range of values depending on context
SteveZ: also priorities between adjustments
SteveZ: more than %age, more complex in the Japanase Layout Task Force
report
fantasai: let�s not design that solution at this level
SteveZ: concern with 'fixed' is that it restricts this solution
SteveZ: letter-spacing was originally designed for latin
fantasai: want UAs do the right thing for justification by default,
though it may take awhile before we quite get there.
fantasai: fine tuning of this is not something we should do now, if at all
SteveZ: OK with that, I just don�t like 'fixed'
SteveZ: can we live without it?
fantasai: I�m ok with that
stearns: one of the use case for 'fixed' is German text, disable letter
spacing for justification to avoid confusion with emphasis
SteveZ: ???
SteveZ: when we see problems, we can engineer the right solution
SteveZ: 'fixed' seems to be not terribly helpful
plinss: consensus?
fantasai: I think allowing justification for 'letter-spacing: <length>'
and not having fixed is what jdaggett originally wanted,
so I think we should just resolve on not having 'fixed' and
he can object if he wants.
Bert: "There are newspapers that do that - more than 5%"
Bert: what if you do want letter spacing for justification?
fantasai: undefined for now
<tantek> perhaps post screenshots of newspapers that do this?
SteveZ: we say UAs should "do the right thing"
SteveZ: we need to experiment to see what values/controls make sense
Bert: By default I want that limit at 0 or 5%
Bert: don�t want to leave it completely open. Impls will do letter-spacing
without any limit and we won�t be able to get rid of it anymore
Bert: "Would like some way to say, if you use this keyword, then
you may use more than 5%"
plinss: the default is to whatever you think is right, 'auto' keyword
SteveZ: when mixing Latin and CJK, no one single number gives a good answer
fantasai: proposed resolution: accept part one of the proposal
Bert: I do not want to allow that between alphabetic letters
fantasai: you have to allow it for CJK, and need to allow more than 5%
SteveZ: bert�s proposal is to only relax when you say 'distribute'
Bert: 'auto' means letter-spacing is honored
Bert: I have content with letter-spacing:0 because I don�t want expansion
SteveZ: existing content that depends on the non-spec behavior of
existing impl
fantasai: existing content has letter-spacing:0 and expect expansion
Bert: that�s not what the spec says, we don�t have to deal with that
???: yes we do
plinss: let�s move on
fantasai: my understanding is: consensus except for Bert
fantasai: discuss with Bert on the ML?
SteveZ: would be helpful to document what existing content would break
fantasai: CJK content (no spaces) with 'letter-spacing: 0' that expects
expansion
Topic: text-align
Bert: problem that fantasai mentioned is the cascading problem
Bert: not sure that�s the same
<dbaron> (fantasai seems to have dropped off the call)
Conditional Rules
-----------------
plinss: where are we? Moving the spec forward
dbaron: I don�t really know
plinss: can we look into it and come back to it next week?
dbaron: T&A is higher priority
Scribe: fantasai
image-resolution: snap
-----------------------
SimonSapin: wrt snap keyword of image-resolution
SimonSapin: It's not really well-defined in CSS what the resolution is
SimonSapin: esp. wrt zoom and transforms
SimonSapin: Consensus on ML seems to be that transforms don't affect snap
SimonSapin: Zoom that changes size of viewport should affect snap,
but purely "optical" zoom should not
TabAtkins: Need some place that actually defines concept of viewport-zoom
vs. other zoom
TabAtkins: This distinction also affects device-pixel-ratio etc.
TabAtkins: The things that 'snap' responds to are same as canvas
TabAtkins: Dunno where to define
fantasai: I think MQ is a good place to define this
SimonSapin: What about device-adapt spec?
fantasai: That might be ok, too. What is the status of that anyway?
plinss: No WD since 2011
TabAtkins: should poke Opera
<sgalineau> is the editor still at Opera?
<oyvind> device-adapt? yes
florian: yes, the editor is still at Opera
ACTION TabAtkins: Define zooming, 2 types, for insertion into either MQ or device-adapt
<trackbot> Created ACTION-572
TabAtkins: visual zoom vs. layout zoom
fantasai: Define snap to respond only to layout zoom
<dbaron> I would *not* use the terms "visual zoom" and "layout zoom"
that TabAtkins suggested
<dbaron> The distinction really has to do with whether there's one
viewport or two.
<TabAtkins> Suggestions welcome, dbaron. ^_^
SimonSapin: 2 more issues...
SimonSapin: Two values for horizontal and vertical resolution
fantasai: Think that's out of scope for L3
SimonSapin: But when you have from-image, some images can have 2 values
SimonSapin: So CSS should also be able to handle that
florian: Given from-image is in this level, maybe do it in this level
fantasai: Could just allow it via from-image
fantasai: Ordering of dimensions should be same as border-spacing,
background-image...
fantasai: Note it's physical
TabAtkins: Well, logical in relation to the image
SimonSapin: Will interact with image-orientation
fantasai: yep
SimonSapin: Move to ML for details?
fantasai: Sounds reasonable. Maybe draft up text and bring back to WG?
fantasai: Anyone else on this topic?
RESOLVED: two X/Y values for image-resolution
SimonSapin: Units for image-resolution from-image
SimonSapin: from-image metadata, e.g. png spec has number of image
pixels per cm or whatever
SimonSapin: Do we interpret that as CSS units rather than physical units?
fantasai: Yes
SimonSapin: Clarify in spec
RESOLVED: Clarify spec that CSS units are used for from-image resolution
as well as CSS-explicit resolutions
Matrix API
----------
<krit> http://dev.w3.org/fxtf/matrix/
krit: We wanted to have an interface that can handle 3D as well
krit: Could have Matrix interface used by SVG and CSS together
krit: Hopefully CSSOM will eventually expose the matrix interface
krit: So wanted a joint specification
krit: would like to ask for feedbac, fpwd
* glazou supports FPWD for CSSMatrix interface
krit: Already asked for review 3-4 weeks ago, no feedback
plh: You name the interface CSSMatrix
plh: Do you imply it can only be used by CSS?
krit: Was called Matrix before, but not happy for WebGL people
krit: Not useful for them
krit: Asked us to use a more specific name
krit: since used for CSS Transforms, called it CSSMatrix
<dbaron> I'm not convinced by the argument that it should have
a CSS prefix
<tantek> dbaron++
* fantasai too
Bert: If we make this SVGMatrix, maybe SVGWG can take care of
publishing? ;)
glazou: Is name of interface a blocker for FPWD?
<tantek> I suggest we go FPWD without prefix
dbaron: I don't think it is, but should note the issue.
<tantek> OH: "� then wait for last call to change the name :)"
<sgalineau> TransformMatrix?
* fantasai likes it!
smfr notes that there's also CSSPoint interface
krit: Also have a DOMPoint interface
krit: Think I added an issue... it's under discussion.
fantasai: So, note the issues, publish FPWD?
RESOLVED: FPWD Matrix, with naming issues noted
* tantek is pleased to see the Matrix make progress.
Flexbox
-------
fantasai: I guess we discussed converting table-cells to flex items
fantasai: Do you have @supports yet? I think I would be uncomfortable
not having good fallback from flex to tables if we don't
have good support for @supports
Rossen: min-size?
TabAtkins: Different issue.
TabAtkins: Read & comment on thread
fantasai: Think we can go with box-fixup clarification
fantasai: and revisit during LC if necessary
RESOLVED: box-fixup on internal table elements before flex item
determination
<dbaron> If you're planning to come (or might come, please list probability)
to the Paris F2F, please add yourself to
http://wiki.csswg.org/planning/paris-2013#participants
Meeting closed.
Received on Thursday, 1 August 2013 10:09:57 UTC